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Intro: Welcome back to Lead the Team with No. 1 best-selling author and in-demand corporate trainer Ben Fanning. On this podcast, the world’s most innovative senior leaders share their top success strategies to motivate your direct reports, cultivate your top leaders, and accelerate your career. Let’s get started. Here’s Ben.

Ben: Hey there, Lead the Team nation. Welcome back to another great episode. Today, I have for you Vinay Nadig, who is the Chief Strategy Officer over at Simplify Healthcare, a cloud-based SaaS company whose products solve complex problems in health insurers in North America. Vinay has spent over 20 years serving as a leader in healthcare insurance companies and a partner in healthcare consulting companies, driving innovation, cost optimization, and growth. He gets the most satisfaction, though, from the team members that he's served and supported as they've grown to become leaders themselves and achieved and surpassed their goals. He's deeply invested in making the people around him successful and watching their career growth with great pleasure. Vinay emigrated from India to the US on January 1, 1990, and has authored a book called Leadership is for Everyone: 20 Leadership Secrets for Exceptional Outcomes and Fulfillment at Work. Love that title, Vinay. Welcome to Lead the Team, Sir. [00:44:00]

Vinay: Hey, thank you, Ben. That’s a great energy shot for me this Friday morning. So that’s awesome. Yeah, look forward to our chat.

Ben: Man, me too. And y'all, Vinay has the coolest beard I think I have seen in a very long time. I have tried to grow a beard in the past just a little bit. And before it would get growing, I was like, I always check and doubt because I'm like, my beard is not going to look right. And I've seen some of the pictures of Vinay without the beard. And now you have the beard of all beards. What was the moment? You're like, I've got all this time without a beard. Now, I need to break this thing out. [00:1:54]

Vinay: You know, I mean, as you can see, I do have to compensate for the lack of hair on top of my head. So... I want to feel the wind in my hair again. And my only option was to grow a beard. So here it is.

Ben: Yeah. So, for those of you who can't see us on video or are listening, he's got a beard that's super cool. It's white with some black in it. And it's very impressive. Before we joined here, Vinay was saying it was this year, right? More or less when you started. Think back to your years as an executive before the beard. And now your year in the beard. What have you noticed the difference? [00:2:41]

Vinay: I think I’ve only gotten a lot of positive feedback, to be fair. You know, the only negative reinforcement that is happening is at home. I don’t think my wife‘s a big fan. But apart from that, I think, you know, people think that suddenly I’ve become wiser, which is always an advantage in my field of work. So...

Ben: Yes. Okay. So that was what I asked you in the business world. I feel like a lot of times, people go without a beard. A lot like you don't see it at all. But you're noticing that people do respond to you. May be they look to you as a wiser person because you can break it out. [00:3:37]

Vinay: I have seen that. You know, I mean, look, Ben, that’s the reaction I get anyway. I’m trying to be modest here, but yeah, I mean, it’s been more that route than anything negative at all. 

Ben: Yeah. All right. Cool. I just thought it would be helpful for people to hear about life with a beard as an executive before a beard. Yeah. So, very good insights there. You never know what kind of insights you're going to glean and get on Lead the Team, but they're always helpful in that nature. So, let's talk about this book that came out several years ago, and the title is so compelling. And one of the things that you're known for saying is that excellence always starts from the small things. What do you mean by that? [00:4:10]

Vinay: Yeah, you know, absolutely. I’m a firm believer in that. When I had my undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering decades ago, and when we started those days, we actually had to go into Smithies, foundries, carpentry labs, machine tool labs, etc., and work with our hands. So, in the very first semester of my engineering schooling, there was a batch of us; we were all pretty excited. I remember it was kind of a wintery afternoon when I went to school. The fitting lab is where we went in, and it was kind of dark, and the instructor — foreman, we used to call them, gave us two square pieces of metal. There was a kind of a design there where we had to cut in both pieces so that they fit well together, right? That was fitting. And we thought, you know, easy enough, measured it, hacksawed the pieces out, filed it a little bit, and said, okay, yeah, these fit. So, we all had to go over to him and say, hey, you know, I think we’re done. It’s fitting. And he would go, hey, you know, see, there’s some sunlight streaming through the window, just hold up the fitting piece that you just did. And let’s see how it looks. So, you hold it up, and you can feel, you know, see the sunlight streaming through. He goes, yeah, just, you know, just make sure to go back and file it a little more. We just don’t need to see any of that sunlight streaming through these. Understanding that a first-semester engineering student is never going to get that tolerance where you’re going to block the sunlight by doing hand filing. He made us hand-file that piece for four weeks. He did not let us move on to the next project because he said, hey, you know, this is what you have to learn. This is where you are now. If you want to be excellent in your careers and in your jobs, henceforth, understand that excellence is in small things. And unless you get this, you’re not going to move to the next one. I mean, none of us ever did, but the lesson has sat with me, you know, now for close to 35 years. So that’s where my belief was born that, you know, like I talked to my team members, especially early career folks, about, look, if all you do today is build an Excel table or three slides in PowerPoint or take two calls with customers, make sure you do it the best way possible because that’s where your career is being built off of and not on aspiring to be things, etc. Those things will come along, but excellence starts in the small things. I mean, I’m a big fan of Tom Peters, Ben, and he says excellence is the next five minutes. That’s it. It’s not about anything more than that. And it’s definitely not anything less than that. 

Ben: Now, what a compelling story. And what a frustrating moment. I'm a, like, I'm filing this thing. The professor says I should be able to get these things to fit together with no sunlight. Did anyone ever get it? I mean, it's virtually impossible, right? [00:7:38]

Vinay: It is. Absolutely. And that is the point. What he wanted to show us was, look, you’re now entering into a phase where it’s not that easy. You can’t skate through. We understand you got great grades and got into this school. But for you to excel from this point on, I am going to give you an impossible task, and let’s see how you do. No one did it, but we got the lesson, I think.

Ben: Yeah. That's the lesson, right? The excellence to be able to go the extra mile to take care of the details. And I think in engineering, it's an especially important message. But I can see people outside of engineering and be like, really? Because we're in a fast-moving world. We're not trying to fit things together necessarily in that way. How do you communicate that to your team in a world where, I mean, now you're working more like a software technology-based organization. Where does that lesson come up in the technology world? Or what do you think may be missing in technology leadership-wise where this could be a helpful lesson? [00:8:21]

Vinay: Yeah, that’s a great question. You know, at Simplify Healthcare, where I’m the Chief Strategy Officer. We, as you mentioned, sell software products to the health insurance marketplace. So, the health insurance companies are our primary customers. We sell products that solve complex problems in the way an insurer might develop their products, plans, benefit designs, etc. Our software platform actually enables that, automates that, and transforms it digitally. We also automate and transform a health insurer’s provider data and how they manage doctors, hospitals, facilities, etc. So, these are major challenges that a health insurer faces as well as major opportunity areas where they could really transform digitally to enable their growth as well as obviously serving their members, the consumers, and the patients that need healthcare. And so why I’m setting that context is that we live in a, yes, we live in a fast-paced high transaction volume technology world that we are purveyors of that we sell technology. However, as you can imagine, I mean, we are aiming it at the healthcare ecosystem. We can’t really afford to be anything less than excellent. We can’t afford to be anything less than innovating.  

Ben: Because you're in health. [00:10:33]

Vinay:  That’s right. That’s right.

Vinay: So there’s no margin for error; there are no Plan Bs here. And so, what you do, you have to make sure that you get it right and you get it right the first time. In my mind, the only way to get there is to be excellent is to find the target where every little thing you’re doing is excellent, so the sum of all of those things becomes what you were aiming for at the beginning. Because there is no achieving of whatever we want without doing the small steps. And if we do the small steps in an excellent way, then we are going to get an excellent outcome. So, what that means in practice might be, as I said, you know, I have teams that do marketing, I have teams that do strategy, presales engineering, etc. And if we say, look, what we really need is a deal here. So, let’s get to that first. And it doesn’t matter how we do the pitch. It doesn’t matter, you know like I show up a little half-prepared for a customer meeting. I just want to get the deal. That’s my goal. You’re not going to get the deal. If you don’t pay attention to the pitch deck, if you don’t show up the right way, if you don’t understand the customer’s needs and customize the pitch, which takes just that extra amount of time, which is the excellence part that I talk about. So, I think in any kind of field, it does matter, and it does work.

Ben: Yeah, what a leadership philosophy. And it's like, hey, encouraging your people to just maybe go a little bit slower and pay a little more attention to get the details right. And sometimes people might say, but nay, you're a perfectionist, and you're slowing our team down. I can see that being one perspective, but then when you come back with your response, you just gave, which is, hey, it's really cumulative. Yes, you are doing that one little thing that may not make a difference. But if you do that thing, all right, each and every sales pitch if we prepare with intention each and every time, it has a cumulative effect like interest from a banking standpoint that has a compounding effect, and it's advantageous for us. And I think it's a nice way behind it because it doesn't always feel good to have to slow down, hey, get in the details and check that code, check that deck one more time, but yeah, I can see it having a positive effect or a long haul. [00:12:07]

Vinay: Yeah. And you know, I’ve been challenged throughout my career on this, Ben; I think you bring up a great challenge, right? You know, hey, we need speed. We can’t afford to slow down.

Ben: Time is money. They say time is money, right? [00:13:23]

Vinay: That’s right. And I have never accepted that being fine-grained in detail slows you down. I think you have to look at the entire cycle time or duration of something of a task or a set of tasks that you’re doing and the outcome that you generate out of that. If that’s the goal, then you’re not slow. You’re actually faster than somebody who is not focused on details, who does not get the outcome that we are looking for in the time that they think they’re getting it. We do get to the outcomes based on excellence. And if you look at the total time, it’s probably, in most cases, less than stumbling your way through something and not worrying about the details. So, I’ve never accepted the excuse that you know, excellence and fine-grained detail slows you down. None of my teams are able to provide that reason to me. And I’ve never accepted that. So, I think, you know, it’s a philosophy, right? It’s how do you find fulfillment at work? And that’s the other part of this whole equation, especially as I see folks kind of always aspiring to be something rather than to do something. I mean, that’s another lever that I always pull is, hey, yes, you know, do you want to be a CEO or a senior VP of something or a VP of something, etc.  That’s great. Like a career roadmap goal, etc., but what do you want to do? You know, how do you want to do it? Can you become an expert in the craft that you have? If I talk to somebody early in their career and who wants my advice, I will say, look, what is your craft? Don’t tell me you want to be a this of that at this company. What is your craft? What do you do? What do you want to do? Let’s figure that out. Let’s practice, build your core, and become an expert in that. Everything else will follow, but you have to build your craft, and that’s a bitter pill because it takes time. It takes effort. You have to go deep. You have to specialize. But the things that you want to be follow what you do. And so that’s a firm philosophy. 

Ben: So your craft is primary to what role or position or title you have and having that as a foundation. I like that. Someone who has a bold book called Leadership is for Everyone begs the question, Vinay, is leadership really for everyone? [00:15:34]

Vinay: Ben, I think it depends on how you define leadership. I think there is this misconception that it’s aspiring to be a leader rather than practicing leadership or lead people. Yes, somebody needs to be led for you to be a leader. However, the first person who can be led is you. So, lead yourself first, and then you can lead massive number of people next. You can’t aspire, I think, to just say, what I want to do is I want to be a leader of 300 people or 20 people or 18 people, whatever it may be. That’s not the goal. That’s not the angle. So, when I talk about Leadership is for Everyone, I’m actually talking about build your core and lead yourself first, then followership will follow. So, that’s why I say leadership is for everyone. The other angle there is, especially as folks start to work in larger enterprises, I cannot tell you how much time is spent looking at the org charts of those companies by employees. I would say stop looking at the org chart. Other than to find out their phone number or email to figure out how to contact them, don’t look at the levels, don’t look at the hierarchy, don’t look at the titles, and feel like you don’t have that role or title. Leadership is not baked into the role or title. It is baked into the behaviors that you practice everyday. And that’s why I say leadership is for everyone.

Ben: Sounds like a good book. I like that. The fact that yes, leadership is for everyone because every single person on this planet should learn to lead themselves first. And how far you go in leading others, I guess, depends on your effectiveness and your relationship building and all that. But yes, when you say it's for yourself first, it makes total sense. And I love the idea of throwing out the org chart. You need org charts for a moment to kind of understand the lay of the land, but it creates so many problems. Number one, I think it silos the company. It keeps these people from talking to these people because they're in a different part of the company. And also, probably from my experience and working in corporate, it prevents people from talking to each other from a silo, but also up the chain. We're like, hey, that executive is three people up or two people up for me and the company, I can't talk to them. And then that person doesn't get information, and it just really causes so many problems. So, if you're going to have an org chart, which most organizations do, I think you make some good points there about how you have to be aware of the limitations of the org chart and the problems it's causing. You have to address this with your organization. What is your org chart for, and what is it not for? And I never thought about that until right now. [00:17:32]

Vinay: You know, work hardly ever happens vertically. Work always happens horizontally. What I mean by that is the work of a firm is to serve this customer, solve this problem, make money, you know, be a community builder, etc. Whatever it is that we define as work is being deployed and delivered horizontally from left to right or, you know, right to left. It is never about, okay, going up the chain in my own company and managing up or managing down. It’s always managing through to get to the outcome that you need. Org charts don’t help with that. That’s why I’ve always stopped about, hey, stop, quit looking at the org chart, quit looking at the next title, next role, focus on the impact you create with the work you do, and focus on the doing. The being will follow.

Ben: What's the one trait you wish you could instill in every employee, and why do you think it's important — knowing that you just gave me probably ten possibilities in the last one. But let’s start to prioritize this. What's the one trait you wish you could instill in every employee, and why is it important? [00:20:12]

Vinay: Yeah. So, you know, maybe I’ll take a two-pronged approach. One is — I think one of the things that I espouse myself, and I coach others to do as well, is what I would say as — own the outcome, not the task. So, everyday, depending upon where we sit in some kind of hierarchy or we self-assign tasks to ourselves, somebody asks us to say, hey, can you get X from that particular customer or from that particular stakeholder inside the enterprise? And so, our reaction cannot be, oh, I’ll send them an email or, you know, I’ll just call, or they didn’t pick up. I’ll just leave a message. And the next day, when I’m asked, okay, hey, where is that thing? The answer cannot be I sent an email, which means I checked off the task, but the outcome is still open. The outcome that my customer wanted was I needed that thing. Can you give it to me? I don’t care how you do it, but can you please bring that thing to me? So, I think if all of us employees working in firms espouse that and look at, okay, I need to own the outcome. And, you know, this is, again, multi-layered, right? It starts to build on itself. If you start doing it in the small things, major projects then become outcomes-oriented, and the objectives of an organization become outcomes-oriented. And that’s where, you know, all of our focus ought to be. So I think if there is one thing I would say, that’s what I would say to all employees.

Ben: And is there a time in your organization when you're like, man, because we own the outcome that made all the difference? [00:22:04]

Vinay: Absolutely. You know, I can share something that is, you know, that we espouse even at Simplify Healthcare. I mean, we have a visionary CEO and leader, my boss, obviously, Mohammed Vaid. And the way he has crafted the executive leadership team and the way we are incented and, you know, we collaborate together is, I think, worthy of a Harvard Business Review (HBR) case study, right? Eventually, I’m hoping that he gets written up there because the framework and the techniques that we are using to collaborate, keep politics completely out, and focus only on the outcomes is nothing short of extraordinary. And I’m privileged to be a part of it. And I think, yeah, as I said, you know, I think we are sharply focused on outcomes. We know exactly what we are doing here, where we are footing. And we are also, you know, we have a program inside the company called Level Up, where we are leveling up all of our team members to have those same outcomes-oriented goals and focus on that and leave everything else behind. So, it’s been, you know, a fascinating journey for me here to see this. And as I said, I hope HBR picks it up once our journey is complete here. 

Ben: Well, let me know because we've had the director of Harvard Business Review case studies on our show. You would probably be fantastic in that conversation. That is a really, I think, refreshing approach to leadership for our listeners because it's so darn focused. Outcome, outcome, outcome. And I want to make the distinction, too. A lot of times, we'll say, well, Ben, it's just they're focused on getting results. I think there's a difference in that vernacular that's important. And I think the outcome for some, I'm trying, I can't put my finger on it right now. Why does saying outcome feels more powerful and productive than saying a result? Because I feel like a result can be, as often say, well, business results, the bottom line. It's a number. But when you say outcome, an outcome can be a lot of different things, and it allows you to go the, it forces you to go the extra mile to identify what that outcome is and really crystallize it for the people, you know, and to make sure that gets that done. What comes up for you when I say business results versus outcomes? [00:23:29]

Vinay: Yeah, that’s very insightful, Ben. You know, coming from an engineering mindset, the way I would look at it would be, let’s define these two, let’s attribute these two. And if you look at results and that phrase, achieve results, I would attribute it as, yeah, bottom line, numbers, you know, your mind immediately goes to a spreadsheet, and kind of that’s what it is. And that’s a part of the game we play, of course. Outcomes to me, you know, an outcome has many more attributes, right? Yes, business results are one of those. You know, we do need to be measured and tracked. So, there is that part, but there’s also experience, you know, how did we get there? The process we took to get there is baked into the phrase outcome in my mind. Employee experience, customer experience, community experience, you know, how have we shown up and how did we behave to get to that? That’s a true outcome. And that’s not just a P&L number or a top-line number. So, to me, that’s how I distinguish between, you know, going and getting an outcome versus achieving business results. 

Ben: I love that. An important distinction for people to be thinking about when they're crafting their cultural messages, declaring their visions as leaders for the company using outcome versus the results. Let's talk just a minute, a little more on the personal side. So, on January 1, 1990, you came to the US. What's your journey been like? Growing up in India, now being an executive in a US-based organization, I mean, what's that experience been like? [00:25:47]

Vinay: Oh, it’s been a fascinating experience for me. I count myself as, you know, very privileged, and I’m filled with gratitude, right? You know, I’m as immigrants are in a lot of cases. I’m all in on the United States. I’m a bullish on America. I love it. I love the country. You know, my children were born here. They’re native Texans and proud to be native Texans. You know, my journey started with me enrolling in an MBA program here at Texas A&M University, and so, you know, it was challenging, right? I mean, I came with a little bit of fuel in the tank as it were financial fuel, and it quickly ran out, and as a foreign student, you know, obviously, I had to pay out-of-state fees, etc. And literally, I was down to my last $7 and, you know, walking from my lab without any kind of real idea about how, what the next day might be and my, my Dean of the business school, you know, he had this beautiful yellow pickup truck and, you know, I saw a flash of yellow and he kind of pulled in front of me and stopped me and he used to call me Netish and he goes, Netish, are you available for a graduate assistantship? I’m like, available, man, I’m hungry for that. Let’s. And, you know, the serendipity was amazing, and, you know, I got on that train, and it was awesome. So, you know, many, many anecdotes, peaks and valleys like that, but all in all, I mean, I’m filled with gratitude. It’s been a great journey.

Ben: Growing up in India, what do you think the advantages have been for how you live your life in business? I mean, what, and in what perspective has that given you that maybe people in the US miss out on? [00:28:08]

Vinay: I don’t know if it’s as much missing out. I would say just my own experience and journey is what I can share, but I’m not; I’m not necessarily looking at it from there is a gap here versus not. I think every system has strengths and weaknesses. For me, I got a great engineering education that was very rigorous, and I’m not an engineer today, but I still credit the schooling and the education I got with the way I think about problems. I have a systems way of thinking about problems that never left me, and I totally credit my engineering education. Now, I have to tell you a funny story. My son is also a mechanical engineer, but he makes sure to tell me that he’s a true mechanical engineer; he actually designs medical devices for a living. And he’s like, hey, dad, don’t say you’re a mechanical engineer; you studied it, but you’re not one. I am one. So, I would say, Ben, that was real key as well as, you know, the friends and family support and kind of that whole community feeling that you get just naturally in India because that’s the culture. That was a great strength as well. It prepared me to always operate from a platform of abundance, even though there was not a whole lot of it going on initially, instead of looking at it from a platform of scarcity, which would have been tough for me to win the battles that I have.

Ben: What's the time you had an unexpected twist or failure in your career, and how did it lead to your success or growth down the road? [00:29:59]

Vinay: Yeah, I’ll tell a story that is maybe a failure. I thought. That somehow got converted into a success. That may be a better story. So, in one of my first jobs as a mechanical engineer back in India, I was a technical sales guy selling industrial cables and switch gear to factories to large industries. And I was the first person in my company in the city I was operating in. I was like, you know, the lone ranger that sent out there to kind of start building that market. I saw it as challenging work, and I didn’t know any better. So it was, it was all great. And you know, I created a good book of business. And my boss who was the Managing Director and CEO of that division said, okay, we need to do an annual conference — more of a party, really. We will have a couple of workshops, but it’s really a customer appreciation day. It’s also a customer and prospect appreciation day. And you have to do it. So, the logistics part of it was not challenging. I mean, you know, we got all that stuff figured out. My absolute nervousness was whether anyone would show up because it was all new, and I was new — a year into it. They didn’t really recognize the company’s branding yet. And I had done my best, you know, personal invitations or the phone, everything, right? Ginned up, I think, a lot of interest, but who knew? And so, my CEO came over in the afternoon of that day; he lived in a different city. He came over, and he goes, yeah, let’s chat. And then he says, look, Vinay, my first conference like this, when I started out, five people showed up. And I’m like, you know, this is no way to encourage me.

Ben: I'm pretty sure [00:32:15]

Vinay: What I had done, and this is, you know, this is the point where I thought I had failed. What I had done was, in desperation, I’d made sure that I invited and seeded this event with about 15 of my friends to at least have some level of thing. And so, you know, it was a, it was really a nerve-wracking time. My friends obviously showed up. There were free drinks. So, they’re like the first through the door. And my CEO looks at me and goes, you know, I know who those guys are. I know they’re not our customers. But he smiled, and I was like, okay, this is a failure. But in the end, we had an overwhelming response. We had all of our customers show up, plus folks that were in the kind of prospect kind of universe. And so, it was a, you know, it was a great success. But that process to get there, I thought I had failed completely, especially when my boss said, you know, my first one had five people. I’m like, okay, I’m done. 

Ben: He was trying to make you feel better, just in case. Yeah. Just in case it bombed, he wanted to make sure you felt good. [00:33:20]

Vinay: Yeah, it was a risk management strategy of sorts. 

Ben: I’m glad it went well. But I think we've all had those moments where we're taking a risk. We don't know if it's going to pay off. And you may not know for a while. Yeah. And you're just waiting to see. And just keep your fingers crossed. Yeah. No, that's a great story. So, starting to wrap this up, Vinay, what are three success tips that you'd offer for every leader [00:33:34]

Vinay: You know, I think I would say, as I said, you know, all the outcomes, not the task. That is something that I think everyone should keep in mind. Especially as the world moves to where it is moving, you know, maybe it’s AI-fueled, maybe it’s AI-driven, etc. I think a sharp focus on learning your craft and specializing is more important than being a generalist. And I know I probably fall outside the bounds of conventional thinking there because there’s a lot of pressure on kids as they come out, and even mid-career folks to kind of be generalists, know a little bit of everything, and proceed that way. I don’t know whether that’s a surefire path for impact at work, as well as fulfilling yourself. I think expertise in craft and then standing on a platform of achievement is actually a better path to impact and fulfillment. However, you define it, right? Whether there are financial success metrics or leadership metrics that you put for yourself, I think deep specialization is called for, especially as a lot of the commoditization of work could be done by AI eventually. Why would we want to be generalists? So that’s something that, you know, I think my thinking has evolved in that as well. 

Ben: I appreciate that. I think it's also thinking about what trade schools offer and how practical plumbing, electrical, car, mechanical, these sorts of things that we really need and how few there are people in those roles. But kind of going back to that, what's your advice for people who are like, well, you know, I've had this great high school experience. I've taken all the courses; I don't really know what I want to specialize in. What would you say to them? At that part of their career where they're trying to figure it out? [00:35:34]

Vinay: Yeah, you know, and that’s natural, right? And I think, well, there are a couple of things, right? If you have the luxury of going to college and then going to graduate school, you know, that is one path where you may have some more luxury and time to “figure out what you like, what kind of expertise you want to build,” etc. But not everyone has that luxury. And if you’re looking at, you know, high school, going to trade school versus high school, college, I would say focus on getting some kind of a job. And it doesn’t matter that you may not land there at the end of your career. I think, I mean, the more we see how early career folks are finding themselves, I think it takes two to three jobs to figure it out. And I think that’s okay. I don’t know whether we should put pressure on somebody to build a career from day one to 40 years. I don’t think that that happens anymore. I think it is okay to kind of dip your toe and say, yeah, I didn’t like it, but I gave it a shot. I think it’s important to give it a shot. And when you’re in it, be in it.

Ben: I can see that. It's really fair. From what I've taken away from that, it's a mindset that I'm going to identify a skill that I can really specialize in that's going to generate value for myself, for my company, and for the world. But I don't have to have it figured out immediately. But to be on that journey of intention versus, say, I'm going to stay a generalist my entire career, which there can be some temptation to do that. And yeah, I mean, it's a really powerful line. [00:37:24]

Vinay: I think the first five, maybe even ten years of your career, they’re all about finding your domain, meaning what area of life/business do you want to actually work in? And then becoming an expert. So, it’s all about learning. I don’t think a sharp focus on aspiring to be titles, roles, or levels helps at all in the early part of the career. I think it’s all about learning. And it’s all about then figuring out, OK, is this something I like? Now, there is another set of that as well. It can happen in reverse, too. When you really get good at something, even though you may think you never liked it going in, you suddenly become purpose-driven because you’re so good at something, and you can use that to achieve whatever you want. So, I would not look past the grind and the grunting. Sometimes beauty comes out of that after a period of time. And I think the challenge is, can you last that period of time? And can you be patient?

Ben: That's so good. It reminds you of a quick story, and I've never had the time here. But early in my career, I was an industrial engineer. And I was really getting burned out on it. I was crunching numbers all the time, spreadsheets, time studies, all this stuff, plant layouts. And then essentially, we had to teach, we were going to outsource part of our work, and everyone was freaking out. They went to the first couple of engineers who were ahead of me and asked them to teach them what we were doing to them so they could take it over. And a project wasn't going well. And I was like, they'd gone to the A engineer didn't work. They went to the B, and finally, they came to Fanning, the C player, and said, hey, Ben, just give it a shot. And I loved it. It turned out I didn't really like doing the work, but I really enjoyed teaching that to other people. And then, my career started to take a completely different trajectory from that point. And I still didn't find it exactly, but the teaching element gave me that charge of passion and interest. And I was like, man, so it wasn't; it was the teaching of the work I didn't like doing versus doing the work. Anyway, all right. Yeah, I mean, I thought it tied it pretty well there today. But thanks for coming on. What a fun interview today. How many great messages? What’s your parting thought for the listeners today? [00:39:08]

Vinay: You know, I think parting thought, I think, again, it follows the theme of this discussion. I think if you’re trying to find fulfillment at work, create impact at work, and focus on excellence in small things, it will get you to where you need to go. Focus on the doing versus the being. That’s been my philosophy.

Ben: Thanks for the great time today, sir. [00:41:05]

Vinay: Thanks, man.